Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, a highprince died and four Radiants gathered. This week, Wit expounds and Jasnah Elsecalls, as we conclude our discussions of this magnificent behemoth.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here.
Click on through to join the discussion!
Epilogue: Art and Expectation
Point of View: Hoid
Setting: a week away from civilization
Symbology: Double Eye of the Almighty, Joker, Battar
IN WHICH Wit waits at the back of beyond, entertaining the local fauna with esoteric discussions of art; a ring of light spins before him, and Jasnah appears at the center of it; she points an instantly-summoned Blade at Wit, who is profoundly unconcerned by it; after a bit of verbal fencing, Jasnah begins to list the things that will, or will need to, happen; Wit crosses off each item on her list as she goes; they begin walking toward the nearest town; further information is exchanged; Jasnah realizes that most of what she has learned may be irrelevant; with a brief philosophical discussion of the nature of God, they proceed on their way back to what’s left of civilization.
Quote of the Week
“Expectation. That is the true soul of art. If you can give a man more than he expects, then he will laud you his entire life. If you can create an air of anticipation and feed it properly, you will succeed.
“Conversely, if you gain a reputation for being too good, too skilled… beware. The better art will be in their heads, and if you give them an ounce less than they imagined, suddenly you have failed. Suddenly you are useless. A man will find a single coin in the mud and talk about it for days, but when his inheritance comes and is accounted one percent less than he expected, then he will declare himself cheated.”
I won’t go so far as to say that Brandon was directing this at any particular personal experience, but… have you ever read all the comments (twitter or facebook) when he announces anything? Every time he mentions an uptick in the Stormlight 3 progress bar, someone complains about not having the Rithmatist sequel yet. When he announces a new Stormlight novella for the forthcoming Arcanum Unbounded, someone complains that they don’t have SA3 yet.
(And of course there was the response to his work on The Wheel of Time—which ranged from, “Wow! That’s the story I’ve been waiting to read, and excellently done!” to “This jerk thinks he can write, but he screwed up my beloved story by not being Robert Jordan!” But… we won’t dig into that.)
On the other hand, there are those who have some understanding of just how much work it is to write a really excellent book—not only the story idea, but the story-crafting, the word-smithing, the revisions, the cross-checking—and those are the folks who make it worthwhile to read the comments. The people who say things like, “Take whatever time you need to make it what you want it to be! We can wait.”
Commentary
Jasnah lives! Oh frabjous day!
I’m really glad I had to write things down the first time I read this book, or I’d be tempted (like everyone else!) to say that I knew all along that she wasn’t dead. But going back to old notes, I can see that I was shocked and dismayed, then disbelieving, then cautiously accepting of her death. I wasn’t 100% sure she was dead—that missing body, you know—but at the same time I could accept that Brandon might actually have killed her, if that’s what he needed to do for the overall plot. And I’d have been okay with that. Not happy, but okay.
I also recall that, while I was delighted to learn that she wasn’t dead, I couldn’t help feeling like the dead-not-dead card was being overplayed. Looking at it now, though, my guess is that we’re going to get a similar type of death in one of the next three books, and just when we’re all looking smugly around and saying, “Nah, he’s not really dead,” the thoroughly dead body will show up and we’ll be gaping like fish, wondering how that happened. (Just guessing, though. I haven’t seen anything yet, honest!)
Ah, well. So what, precisely, has Jasnah been doing over there in Shadesmar? Where did she get a backpack and a bandolier, and what does the bandolier hold? (Wit doesn’t see fit to mention that for us, now does he?) Perhaps she met someone—maybe Khriss?—in Shadesmar, and was able to obtain some useful items. Presumably, she was also able to find some source of food, since she’s been there physically this entire time. (At least, I assume a physical body gets hungry, even when it’s wandering around in the Cognitive realm.) But there are a whole bunch of minor details included that raise a whole bunch of major questions. How did she get burned? That wasn’t part of the assassination. What did she do in Shadesmar to get so tattered? It’s quite possible she had a belt knife, which she could use to cut her dress to a practical length, but did she always carry needles and thread in her pocket? Somehow, she’d sewed herself a glove. Or maybe she just got Ivory to turn himself into a Shardneedle?
There are a few things we do know, however. She was able to learn some things from the highspren regarding previous Desolations, even if the account is incomplete. Unfortunately, she learned enough to know that things are happening differently this time… which means that the information she sought at Urithiru, if it even exists there, may not be as useful as she had anticipated.
We also know that she now has a fully functional Shardblade-level bond. When she spoke the Oaths to bring her up to that level, we don’t know. Considering she’s been working on it for six years, it’s quite possible that she’s been a full-fledged Radiant for a while, and we just didn’t know. But I want to know!
After reading the epilogue again, I can certainly see how Jasnah and Wit wouldn’t get along very well. His particular brand of humor, especially in context of a dire threat to her world, would be really grating. While Jasnah clearly has a sense of humor, Wit’s overt snark wouldn’t be the sort of thing she’d find all that funny. Perhaps, in a time of less urgency, she’d be mildly amused by him mocking Amaram, but… well, this is not that day.
Finally, there is the brief interchange on the subject of God. I really don’t know what to make of it. I enjoyed the specific acknowledgement that Tanavast, so-called “Almighty,” is definitely not God, though for practical purposes on Roshar he was a god. What I don’t quite know is whether Hoid considers Adonalsium to be God, or whether he’s doing some hand-wavey “God is whoever we think he is” schtick. If it’s the latter, there’s not much more to be said. If it’s the former… then I have to wonder about the implications!
Also, how did he know where and when to find her?
The scene leaves us with more questions than answers, despite Jasnah’s return and her identification as an Elsecaller. But… that’s part of the mark of a good epilogue, isn’t it? It leaves you wanting more.
Stormwatch
The timing is currently unknown. Wit believes that the storm should hit Shinovar this night, but whether that’s because he knows when it will hit, or if it’s an estimate based on the speed of highstorms, he doesn’t say. In any case, it should be sometime during the gap between Chapter 88 and Chapter 89.
Sprenspotting
No actual spren were observed in the rereading of this chapter.
That said, Wit’s comment must be quoted:
“You’ve been making quite a disturbance on the other side,” Wit said. “It’s been a long time since the spren had to deal with someone alive, particularly someone so demanding as yourself.”
This makes me laugh, imagining the poor spren trying to figure out what to do with Jasnah, stomping around in Shadesmar demanding answers. Still, it’s pretty cool that she was able to do some research with them.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
We have an “ugly lizard-crab thing,” which I assume must be some sort of cremling? And songlings, which always sound to me like they must be related to cicadas or something like that. The best part is how both critters seem to respond to Wit’s conversation. Does he actually manage to a) communicate with them or b) manipulate their responses? I don’t know that it actually matters, but it’s funny.
Ars Arcanum
The air in front of him blurred, as if heated in a ring near the ground. A streak of light spun about the ring, forming a wall five or six feet high. It faded immediately—really, it was just an afterimage, as if something glowing had spun in the circle very quickly.
In the center of it appeared Jasnah Kholin, standing tall.
I’ve already noted this, of course, but I’ll point it out again anyway: this is exactly the same imagery described by Shallan in Chapter 87, when the Oathgate was activated by Kaladin. At some point, I really need to work out a more detailed theory about fabrials that do straight-up mechanical stuff, and “fabrials” that truly replicate Surgebinding.
Or I could just wait for Oathbringer. That might have answers on the subject.
“You realize we’re at least a week away from civilization. Did you need to Elsecall this far out in the middle of nowhere?”
“I was somewhat pressed at the time of my escape. I’m lucky to be here at all.”
It sure will be fun to learn more about Elsecalling. Presumably, with practice it can be used in a more precise manner than this, or it wouldn’t be much good. But at the moment, I want to know what Jasnah was escaping from when she was so pressed for time. She clearly spent a hefty chunk of time in Shadesmar; even if time doesn’t seem to pass in the same way, she was there long enough to get information from the highspren. So it doesn’t make sense that she’s referring to her escape from the ship. More of those “grinders” (painspren) from the non-canon Jasnah scene? I want to know!!
Heraldic Symbolism
The symbolism in the chapter icon is fairly clear, once again. The Joker represents Wit, who is also the POV character for the scene. Battar represents the Elsecallers, of which Jasnah is a (the?) member.
End Materials
I just have to mention, in case anyone missed it before, that (as in TWoK) the phrases of the ketek also form the titles for the five Parts of the book. If you want a little more on the structure of the ketek, look up chiasm, which is the same sort of thing; the ketek, though, has more demanding limitations in that it has to form a comprehensible statement along with the symmetry.
I think it would be difficult to write a good ketek. It would for me, anyway.
While I won’t dig deeply into the Ars Arcanum, there is some very juicy info included. First and foremost, this version includes our first authoritative list of the Surges and a very brief summary of what they involve. It also mentions something that we easily forget: the chart of the Ten Essences, etc., is based on traditional Vorin symbolism, not necessarily hard factual relationships.
Khriss speculates on the relationship between Surgebinding, Voidbinding, and the Old Magic, but what she says is mostly enough to convince us that we know essentially nothing of the latter two. I daresay that’s coming, soon enough!
The information on Fabrials and Windrunner Lashings is much like that contained in TWOK, though I didn’t do a strict comparison. The notes on Lightweaving, which are new, drop tantalizing hints of similar use of magic elsewhere in the Cosmere. I’m always curious when there’s a hint of Yolen involved, since that seems to be as close as we get to an “original world” in the Cosmere.
Well, here we are, at the end of the book. We did it, y’all. We reread, in great detail, Words of Radiance. I’m … rather sad that it’s done, though I’m definitely ready for a break. Thank you all so very, very much for making this such a rewarding experience! Despite occasional friction, I’m proud to be a part of this community; you people are magnificent, and I’m honored to consider you friends.
What comes next? I don’t want to lose momentum, but there’s just no more Stormlight to be had until Arcanum Unbounded comes out in November. You will definitely want to join in on the discussion of the Lift novella Edgedancer when it’s released, though, because we need to talk about it! (Brandon thought it was going to be a 17,000-word novelette, but it ended up right around 40,000 words, because he used it to let us observe some things that needed to happen before the events of the next book take place. Trust me, we need to talk about it.) After that, though, we just have to wait for the release of Oathbringer, and that’s going to be a while. There’s some indication that the beta will begin early this fall, and the beta-readers are currently doing a group reread discussion of WoR in preparation, but… we’ll have to wait and see. Team Sanderson is working on ways to streamline the process without compromising the quality of the work, so it might not be as long a wait as we would currently expect. Dunno.
In lieu of Stormlight, then, we’re going to go explore BioChroma. Yes, I’ve gotten the go-ahead for a Warbreaker reread. I’m looking forward to digging into Vasher’s character, knowing that he was written as a sort of prequel to Zahel. It should also be fun to do a reread where we’ve got direct commentary by the author; I’ll be looking at not only the text, but also the annotations. No idea how it will work or what the structure will be, but we’ll have fun with it anyway! It will start sometime in September; the exact schedule is still TBD.
With that, let me thank you again for being such a superb group. Keep in touch, my friends!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader, who is still somewhat shocked—and definitely humbled—to find herself in this position. Her heartfelt thanks go to the wonderful team at Tor, who make it so easy to be here. You ROCK!
I’m mildly surprised Edgedancer didn’t turn into a full up novel.
I’d missed all the little details in the Epilogue though. By the time I’ve read that much book, everything tends to be fuzzy. For example, I never figured out what the deal was with the Corsairs and the Army of the Dead in Return of the King until the movies. I was just so word drunk that I just rolled through that section.
Alice, thank you for your all your work on the SA re-read. Until you discuss AU at the end of this year/beginning of next, I will get off the Brandon re-read train. I have not read his other Cosmere works (and do not have any desire to do so in the near future).
In Alice’s comments, she said that “When he [Brandon] announces a new Stormlight novella for the forthcoming Arcanum Unbounded, someone complains that they don’t have SA3 yet.” I plead guilty to this charge.
If I recall correctly, Jasnah’s Shardblade is in the form of a rapier. (I am at work and do not have access to my WoR at the moment.) I also do not recall reading of anybody else using a rapier type sword. If I am correct on both counts, it may be a second clue that not only did Jasnah spend time in Shadesmar, she also Worlddhopped to another planet. A planet who inhabitants used a rapier. Such a planet could also be where she picked up the bandolier.
I enjoyed Wit and Jasnah’s verbal jousting. Especially, where Wit told her that her ward (his word) accomplished much of what Jasnah said she needed to accomplish.
At the end of the WoK re-read, we had a chance to submit questions which the two individuals running the re-read would select some of them to pass along to Brandon. Brandon would then have answered the questions (where a RAFO counted as an answer). Will you be doing the same?
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I believed from the start jasnah wasn’t dead, due to hr tight corridors on a ship she would have had to stumble over her corpse making her way to the room. Eshoni I think is still alive as well falling in mostly secure shardplate and in storm form would have protected her.
To where good knew to find her I think she needed to else call at a conjunctior or something and this was the nearest one to where she needed to go. But that was from the not fully cannon part.
And last a few theories on hoid. First kind of a massive long shot but it may hold merit from what I’ve heard from Wob. Hoid is the personality/mental aspect of andolisium. I’m the way that vin and sazed are or were.
He has been shown to interact with creatures before and seems to be able to make himself understood and seems to understand others, i was thinking he could have a feremical coin to use connection. Or could have the power himself.
Major characters generally don’t die offscreen in an anticlimactic manner to villains who were, at that point, nameless flunkies. Also, I follow the Gandalf Rule; if we don’t see the corpse, there isn’t one.
Sanderson may have slightly overused the trope in WoR. Jasnah, Szeth, and I suspect Eshonai all have fake deaths.
Of course Jasnah and Hoid know each other. And of course she doesn’t like him. Other than Shallan, does anyone actually like Hoid? The smug hint-dropping mystery man may be fun to read about, but his act would get old very fast when you actually tried to get a straight answer out of him.
Thanks Alice for a wonderful ride through this amazing book. I so appreciate all your hard work, and I’ve read along with each entry, even on weeks when I haven’t had time to comment.
One minor nitpick: You said there were no spren seen in this chapter, but Jasnah definitely had her Shardblade out, and given the instant summoning, I think it’s pretty clear that this is Ivory, so that would technically be a spren, would it not?
\o/ We made it! Congratulations Alice! This has been a superfun re-read to do, and I’m looking forward to seeing the Warbreaker re-read start. I am now even more excited for Edgedancer than I was before, as well.
I know that I missed that Jasnah wasn’t dead because the line about the missing body didn’t register with me. I was with the characters in the book and thought she was dead. I was so sad and it’s only because I had read so much by Sanderson previously, I trusted that he’d still give me a good story that I kept reading and, honestly, I was too invested in the story itself by this point in the series. (Though, I’ve put down books before when the character I get invested in dies.) So when she came back I was shocked and happy and willing to forgive what I also viewed as an overuse of the “not really dead” trope because this time I got one of my favorite characters back. I was worried about that though because I want Sadeas to stay dead and death seemed not have a good hold on characters in this world.
One of the things I’m waiting to see in Oathbringer is Kaladin and Jasnah interacting. I’ve been waiting for this since WoK and can imagine it going in many different ways. I’m kinda hoping that Kaladin and Jasnah actually get to meet in Hearthstone when Kaladin goes to get his parents. I think it would be fun to watch.
Also I’m a Kaladin/Jasnah shipper. Even though my ship is small; I’m still afloat.
Though I’m managing my expectations and not actually expecting it to be canon.
Though it would be cool if it happened.
But given the main romantic pairings that Sanderson normally does are more traditional I doubt it would happen.
Okay so, it’s more like I’m trying to manage my expectations. Just attempting to follow Wit’s story-with-in-a-story advice and let the art speak for itself. My only real expectation for Oathbringer is to be taken along on a great story, with characters that I care about, who get to use cool magic. That not asking too much. I’m just asking for greatness here. ;)
So far Hoid has expounded upon the virtues of timing and expectation in being a famous artist. Any suggestions on what he’ll monologue about in Oathbringer’s epilogue?
I admit Brandon knows more about writing books in his little pinky finger than I do in my entire body. Moreover, Brandon is a better writer than I could ever hope to be in my dreams. (For that matter, you could replace Brandon with any almost any author who has published a book and the two previous sentences would still be true.) Nevertheless, it is also true that I look at the world differently than other people do, Brandon included. (Everybody looks at the world differently than everybody else — that is part of what make us all human.)
I try to make it a practice not to suggest alternatives to the story and author has chosen to write. If I like the story enough, I will continue to read further books by the author and/or the rest of the books in his/her series. If not, I will not. However, I will break my general rule to provide an alternate story line to WoR which I think will allow the story to end up in its same place. I offer two caveats. First, and most importantly, I do not know where Brandon intends to take the rest of SA. It is possible that my alternative story line would contradict where Brandon wants to end up. Second, I admit I think Adolin’s killing of Sadeas will not result in as great as a fall from grace as I think Adolin’s character needs. Moreover, I think that if Adolin suffers no consequences from killing Sadeas, then I believe it would be a major cop-out on Brandon’s part. The extent of the repercussions, how long lasting, and the final consequences are do not matter to me so much as their are repercussions.
Please note that I am in no way suggesting my alternative is better. It is probably is not. Given how I view things, it is how I would have plotted WoR if I wrote WoR (which I did not) and had the same knowledge that Brandon has as to where he wants to go with his series (which I do not).
With those caveats and explanation out of the way, here is my (probably inferior) alternative story line.
Adolin continues his courtship with Danlan. In fact, he tells his friends that he does not want to screw it up like his past courtships. (IIRC, Adolin did state as much in WoK.). Graves, Danlan and the other patriots would not only want to assassinate Elhokar, but would also want to kill Sadeas. This extension of the plot would give further “inducement” for Kaladin to go along with the plan. (Given Moash’s backstory, he did not need further inducement.) I never really bought Kaladin’s desire to protect Moash as the sole reason as why he should abandon his duty as Captain of the King’s guard and tell Dalinar about the plot. The patriots (and especially Moash after the initial meeting) could have convinced Kaladin that the assassination of Elhokar would be in conjunction with the death of Sadeas. I could have bought Kaladin’s desire to not reveal the patriot’s plot.
Moreover, tying in Sadeas’ death to the plan to assassinate Elhokar would have gave greater meaning to Kaladin’s 3rd Oath: “I will protect even those I hate. So long as it is right.” I do not believe that Kaladin ever hated Elhokar. He may have not had a high opinion of Elhokar, but I do not think that Kaladin hated him. On the other hand, Kaladin does hate Sadaes.
Along with Moash trying to convince Kaladin to support the patriots, Danlan could encourage Adolin that Sadeas’ death is crucial to saving Alethkar. Up until Adolin kills Sadeas, I think Adolin would have been content to humiliate Sadeas and defeat him politically. Danlan could have convinced Adolin that only Sadeas’ death would help Alethkar and Dalinar. I do not think that Danlan would have tried to convince Adolin participate in the attempt to assassinate Elhokar. Adolin would not go that far. When Adolin confronts Sadeas at the end of WoR, Sadeas’ threats together with Danlan’s prior conversations would have pushed Adolin over the edge. It could even work if Danlan was present and, during the struggle, to yell to Adolin to remember her prior warnings about Sadeas.
Instead of a casual between Adolin and Shallan, Jasnah and Navani could have set up a casual between Shallan and Renarin. I will admit that without the Adolin and Shallan courtship, we would not have had the story about Adolin going in his Shardplate. (IMO, this was a funny scene.) I thought their interaction together was well written. However, I am sure that Brandon could have written some goods scenes between Shallan and Renarin.
Brandon would not have had to change any more of WoK to go with my scenario above. Also, when (in Book 3) Dalinar discovers that Adolin murdered Sadeas; that Danlan (Adolin’s current girlfriend — under my scenario) was involved in the plot to assassinate the king; and that the assassination plot was planned in connection with the murder of Sadeas, Dalinar could suspect/wonder if Adolin was part of the plot to kill the king. The fact that Sadeas’ murder was part of the overall plan of the patriots, then it is that much more likely that Adolin’s fall will be precipitous.
Thoughts and criticisms regarding the above are welcomed. (Wit taught me to add “regarding the above” in the previous sentence.)
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@8 Andrew HB
I appreciate your alternate storyline, and I think most of it would hold up just as well as the original. Having to save Sadeas would be much harder for Kaladin than just saving Elkohar, who is ultimately more of a chump than a villain. Adolin wouldn’t support murdering his cousin, of course, but he doesn’t have to know about that part of the plan. Sparing Elkohar involves Kaladin overcoming his general hatred and distrust of lighteyes; sparing Sadeas would require Kaladin to overcome his very personal and entirely justified hatred of Sadeas.
However, the patriots would never murder Sadeas. Graves is part of the Diagram, and one of Taravangian’s major goals is to tear down the existing order so that he can build a stronger and more capable world government under his control. As a would-be warlord who plans to break the united Alethi kingdom and bring about another era of divided princedoms and civil war, Sadeas fits perfectly in Taravangian’s plan. Though the choices and consequences that might result from confronting Kaladin with a chance to kill Sadeas are fascinating, Graves is probably under instructions to make sure that Sadeas isn’t harmed by any of his plans, and he certainly won’t scheme to eliminate a major source of the instability Taravangian plans to create.
Thank you Alice. It was a great re-read. I’m looking forward to Warbreaker. I love Siri and the God King. Truthfully, I think they are the most fun couple that Brandon Sanderson has created. Though right now, Steris and Wax are actually almost there with them in my eyes. I just have to wait for the next books for both couples. If you’re wondering why I did not choose Adolin and Shallan, I think Shallan is too ornery. LOL. Does it show that I love rom-com?
See you in September!!!
Good reread, I appreciated the detail and depth. And it’s fun to learn of someone else’s view on unfolding events. “The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon.” – BS
Thank you Alice for this wonderful reread!
I thoroughly enjoyed every moment of it. Every week for the past year, waiting for Thursday morning to come along so I could open up the bookmark to the WoR Reread page for the latest update has been the very highlight of my week. And every time after reading your thoughts and musings would prompt me to go back and reread the book some more. I can’t tell you how much enjoyment I have gained from reading your insights.
And then there is the comments! From the beginning I was pleasantly surprised to find out that there are so many readers out there who shared my enthusiasm. I would gleefully point to the comment section to my wife each week, “Look how many people enjoy reading this book, and they know much more than I do :) “
Once again, thank you for your wonderful reread and looking forward to Warbreaker reread.
Cheers!
Hoid says somewhere that he has some kind of precognition that allows him to know when he has to be where, although he doesn’t always know why.
Doesn’t Wit count as alive? If he does, how does he know what happened in Shadesmar if he hasn’t been there?
Wit here reminds me of Thom on Shayol Ghul.
noblehunter @1 – Well, depending on your definition, it might be a full novel. In the alpha/beta version, it was well over 39K, and while I’m sure he did cleanup, he also added some things before the gamma. (Awesome things. Things that made it fly.) So it probably broke 40K, which by many definitions is a novel.
Also: Word drunk. Yes.
AndrewHB @2 – You’re most heartily welcome, and we’ll miss you in the meantime! Drive safe.
About the questions for Brandon… I didn’t think ahead far enough to set up anything like that, but I’m not sure I’d want to do it right now while he’s making good progress on Oathbringer. For one thing, I don’t want to distract him (!!) and for another, I suspect at this point most of his answers would be RAFO because of what he’s doing with Edgedancer and Oathbringer. But I’ll talk to Peter about it, and let you know here if we do anything.
Jeremy @5 – You are absolutely right – we saw Ivory. Not quite sure how I overlooked that! I usually search on “spren” to make sure I don’t miss any, but I usually also at least notice spren Blades…
kei_rin @6 – “I was worried about that though because I want Sadeas to stay dead and death seemed not have a good hold on characters in this world.”
So much this! At one point, I swore that if Sadeas came back like the others, I was going to climb into the book and finish him off myself. ;)
Bonus for the ending of the WoR reread! (Well, the timing is coincidental, but it works. :D )
For those of you (like me) who weren’t able to get hold of the Stormlight Archive Pocket Companion in the Independent Booksellers celebration, it is now available for download:
http://torforgeblog.com/2016/08/01/download-the-stormlight-archive-pocket-companion/
While I don’t believe it’s entirely canonical, it is pretty cool. Enjoy!
Anyone have any speculation on this line from Hoid – “I’m not physically blind, just spiritually.” No idea what he means, but seems extremely important… Brandon seeding more hints at what the spiritual realm is/does?
Other cool points –
1) does this mean that either this is Hoid’s first visit ever to Roshar (speaking of his involvement in WoK/WoR) or that the Rhyshadium are a relatively new development? Tempted to think the latter given his mention of how long it has been since the spren had to deal with someone alive (i.e. he has shown he knows things about Rosharian history that seem to be from personal experience…) then there is the story that Rock shared a long long time ago. But what that would mean and why it might be important that they are relatively new to Roshar (I don’t even know what the time scale of “relatively new” would look like…)?
2) Why did they surprise him? Level of intelligence? Investiture? Ability to bond with humans? Something else? Are they crazy because they are mammals with a gem heart? (just crazy speculation there…or is it? duh duh duuuuunnnnnn)
3) This definitely is telling us that something very important is going on with the Rhyshadium – how will they become important going forward?
HA! [Humorous and exasperated sound] This is just . . . sometimes I just don’t have words for him. Agree with Alice’s assessment of the way Jasnah is annoyed by him. He is so aware of the games that he is playing, and the deep levels on which they all must be approached. Character is everything to he who is everything as a character. (Lame attempt at a Ketek)
And then there is the whole fact that he absolutely believes that Roshar is ending…
@many – on people coming back from the dead – maybe the connections with Nalthis and Warbreaker run deeper than we thought :P
@7 – Hoid’s definitely gonna to talk about the necessity of institutional art training and technical mastery. Yeah, definitely. :P
Thanks Alice and all for great thoughts, comments, and discussion. I also look forward to the Warbreaker re-read. And AU looks like it will be way too fun. Can’t wait.
Cheers
Thank you Alice. I don’t comment often but I read this re-read religiously and your incite as well as the other commenters are top notch. Thanks for all of your effort and enjoy your break.
Re: The fake deaths–I don’t really get the criticism. I never thought that Jasnah was actually dead. We don’t know Eshonai’s fate yet, but I very much doubt that she is dead. To me, they worked because the characters believe that these people are dead. I it was pretty clear that a Radiant is very unlikely to die from a random flunkie’s stab wound. We don’t know the extent of Parshendi durability, but a Shardplated Stormform Listener will probably survive that kind of fall. It doesn’t seem cheap to me at all. I’m sure that there will be real, permanent deaths coming, and they’ll be all the more poignant knowing how hard it is to actually kill these guys.
Hoid’s thoughts on expectations here in the epilogue ring true to me. Underpromise and overdeliver. Unfortunately for Brandon, each one of his books sets a very high standard, a promise of how good the next book will be. Fortunately for us readers he always manages to deliver stories that meet and even exceed those standards.
@Alice and @2: I like the point about learning the rapier form from another planet. I hadn’t thought of that before. I had always assumed that Jasnah traveled to at least one other planet because 1. It made more sense that she obtained a physical backpack and bandolier from another physical planet, presumably one with some type of bullet/projectile technology. 2. It made more sense to me that she could not spend unlimited time in the cognitive realm. It seems like she would need physical food and water and that she would need to constantly use stormlight or some kind of investiture to manipulate things there to survive. Since I don’t think there is a continuous fount of investiture unless you are a shard, it seemed like she would need to spend much/most of her months away on other planets. Obviously, this is conjecture and not canon.
@Alice and @13 re: “Also, how did he know where and when to find her?” I also do not have my book right now, but I’m pretty sure that it’s something Hoid says to Dalinar when he’s warning him to be careful at the end of the feast when he insults Amaram. He tells Dalinar that he would let the planet burn to accomplish his goals and that the one pursuing him could end his existence, and that he knows he needs to be somewhere but isn’t sure why.
@18 Daniel
Kaladin severed Szeth’s spine and dropped him a thousand feet to certain death. Nalan was magically there, at that exact spot and that exact moment, with a super fabrial we’d never heard of before that has the power to instantly fix Szeth’s fatal wound. I’m sure that, if Brandon Sanderson tries hard enough, he can come up with a justification to explain Szeth’s survival that doesn’t use the words “plot armor”. So I’ll say it for him: plot armor.
As readers, we expect significant characters who “die” offscreen to survive. We know that Jasnah is clever and tricky with illusions, and Shardplate can allow bearers to survive impressive drops. Szeth “died” right in front of Kaladin, suffering a wound that couldn’t be healed through regular Lashings, and he still survived. When a main character kills someone after a massive battle that involves major character development and change for both parties, I expect them to actually stay in the ground. This isn’t a comic book story, where named characters come back from the grave every week, and death loses its meaning if there’s always an escape hatch.
@18, 21 Likewise, Jasnah had been stabbed in the chest and then the entire ship she was on dissolved into water. Not to mention it fit right into the death-of-the-mentor trope. Taking a whole ship with her also seemed suitable.
In the updated version, Szeth was slightly less dead when he left the screen. I think the new one telegraphs his survival a bit more.
I found both not-dead results pretty surprising. I’ll forgive this kind of chicanery for one book (incl. Eshonai) but I’ll be a bit more cross if it keeps happening.
I’m sad to havee finished firsr-reading the Stormlight Archive just as this Reread ends. But I look forward to reading through the reread, and taking part if in the discussion when I can read the next iterations to come out. Thank you, everyone.
I was surprised and a little miffed by Jasnah’s return, because I was trying to figure out whethnd.er or not this was a series where Important Characters Can Die and had previously thought it might be. (Didn’t keep me from spending most of Lift’s chapter begging Sanderson not to kill her). But I’m sure she’ll be an enjoyable presence; we have an abundance of excellent snark already, but can always use more. I was much more miffed by Szeth’s resurrection, because his massacres were the least enjoyable feature of the books and I wanted them to end.
@1: For a while, I thought Shallan would’ve been more compatible with Renarin than with Adolin. But she find Renarin creepy, and is unaccountably infatuated with Adolin, so whatevs.
“I once spent the better part of a year in a large stomach, being disgested.” Wit is the best. Along with Rock and Lopen and Shallan and Lift and…
BS needs to learn the expectation lesson himself. I love that he communicates his plans and projects, but he has over-promised on the schedule of SA way too often and continues to do it. It definitely breeds discontent.
@21-I agree that Szeth’s resurrection definitely crossing the line of possibility and I was very disappointed with yet another use of the trope.
I also want to thank Alice for the wonderful reread and definitely look forward to Warbreaker.
@22 noblehunter
Oh, in terms of real-life rational thinking Jasnah was just as dead as Szeth. It’s only using fictional fantasy tropes that let me realize she was still alive; Jasnah was simply too important to die without a fight at the hands of some unknown assassin. That kind of thing happens all the time in real life, but almost never in fantasy. Vader killed Obi-Wan, not some random stormtrooper.
I haven’t read the updated version, but I’m glad they did something to fix it. In the original, Szeth finally gives up, allowing Kaladin to cut through his spine and drop him through a hurricane to the ground below. It ranks about a 9 on the Really Dead O-Meter, which I was I was so surprised and frustrated to find out that Nalan was hanging around with the spren equivalent of electroshock paddles.
On the bright side, Sadeas is dead dead dead. No takebacksies.
I know it isn’t true, but the association is writ so hard into my mind that when I try to imagine Jasnah with a bandolier, I imagine her with a set of bells from the Old Kingdom, Garth Nix style.
dptullos @@@@@ 9: IIRC, during the round table discussion when Kaladin first met Graves, Graves and friends wanted to kill Elhokar in the hopes that Dalinar would take up the throne. I had the impression that Graves and friends did not think that Sadeas taking the throne would be any better.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Airsick Wetlander, thanks so much for seeing this through. By both inclination and position, you have insights I never would have come up with … as did many of the commentors, of course! I came for the insights, and stayed for the … in-slights? (Trust me, it’s a pun in Alethi.)
Carl, you were missed for the last half! Your posts always had an excellent serving of snark. This was Wit-level stuff. (I mean, not that Wit can’t descend to the level of Shallan, Lightsong or Brandon!Mat, but his good stuff is good, as is yours.)
He’s basically the Green Man from The Eye of the World, isn’t he? He just sort of is wherever someone in need needs him to be.
Indeed, well, I could’ve been convinced, especially when we didn’t hear from her for the whole rest of the book. But I was still giving decent odds she’d survived – no corpse, no death.
I did think Szeth was one resurrection too many, having been killed by a Shardblade. Those burned-out optic nerves and apparent severing of the soul itself seem a bit … final, and it seems like a giant cheat to suddenly have a way to undo that. Of course, I have a first edition, so I didn’t see the Change until later. That was IMO the best part of the Change – the fact that he wasn’t killed by a Blade, plus the whole no corpse, no death thing – so the “resurrection” lost most of its whiplash.
Alice, well done! Congrats on getting to the end of it. Did it feel like its initial title, the Tome of Endless Pages? Can’t wait to dig into Warbreaker with you.
Does anyone have any guesses what was in Jasnah’s bandolier? It can’t actually be bullets can it? Please don’t introduce guns into Roshar, Brandon! I like my fantasy with swords and bows only. Well, most of fantasy. Robert Jordan eventually introduced a canon, which is ok.
Maybe she was carrying knives? Or just supplies?
@27 AndrewHB
Your memory is entirely correct, but Graves is lying by omission. As a member in good standing of the Diagram, he seeks to spread chaos and war as part of their plan to make Taravangian “king of the world”. Graves wants Elkohar dead so that Dalinar will take the throne, but he wants Dalinar to resume his career as the Blackthorn, warlord and conqueror, rather than continuing to work towards refounding the Knights Radiant.
As a statesman and ruler, Dalinar is an unacceptable rival to Taravangian. As an angry, vengeful warlord, he would be a fantastic source of the chaos and war Taravangian needs to fuel his rise to power. Graves is gambling that Elkohar’s death will knock Dalinar “off the wagon” and cause him to revert to his old ways. Since Sadeas also seeks a violent return to the “true Alethkar” of civil war and bloodlust, he is an asset to the Diagram, and they wouldn’t kill him without a good reason.
Well, a rapier to me seems to mean time on Sel (that’s Elantris, right, with the fencing lessons?), since none of the other worlds show much in the way of bladed weapons at all.
As for the deaths/undeaths, I’m not too happy about them. Jasnah needed to die so Shallan could grow into her own person, rather than Jasnah’s lackey. Bringing her back has the potential to undo a lot of that growth. The Szeth retcon is a bit better, apart from the fact that it was a retcon. We (the readers) need an insight into the Shin, and if Szeth dies, a new Shin would need to be introduced as Szeth 2.0 New and Improved Edition (TM), which would be bad. Keeping Szeth around was a good decision.
dptullos @31. I disagree that “Graves is lying by omission.” In Chapter 87 (The Riddens – pg. 1053), Graves said “‘we’re allowed to pursue our own interests and goals until we are called up.’ He shook his head. ‘I thought for sure my interpretation was correct, that if we removed Elhokar, Dalinar would become our ally in what is to come. … Well, it appears I was wrong. Either that, or I was too slow.'”
Earlier in WoR, it is implied that Graves was not “called up” until after King T spoke with with Szeth in Jah Keved.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@33 Andrew HB
I completely forgot about that section. You’re right, and Graves could have planned against Elkohar and Sadeas, removing one to place Dalinar on the throne and the other to get rid of the greatest threat to Dalinar’s rule. That would have been an interesting story, and it would have presented Kaladin with a far more difficult moral choice.
Thanks for writing,
Dylan
Word-drunk: yes, absolutely. Happens to me routinely.
I love the idea of Jasnah running into Khriss, and perhaps beginning a relationship. No, not that kind of relationship (but you never know).
Could Jasnah have picked up the backpack and bandolier on Scadrial?
Re: Fake deaths
I tend to agree with Daniel @18. Szeth’s death was the only “for sure” fake death, until the rewrite. I expect Shallan has matured and grown enough since Jasnah disappeared that she won’t be stifled by her mentor’s return. YMMV.
Thanks, Alice! TTFN
Jasnah I thought was dead, but no body weirdness = was possible, so I wasn’t 100% surprised when she came back. Still rather pleased.
Eshonai wasn’t ever proclaimed dead, just dropped off a cliff. Shardplate bearers were shown earlier in the book to jump headfirst off a tall wall and not be the worse off for it, so a shardplated Stormform probably just was winded and annoyed.
Now Szeth, that was a real “ugh” revival. He released the Honorblade, so he lost Stormlight usage prior to hitting the stormwall and its destruction, so he was done and (probably literally) buried. OK, I get it, regrowth. Hope it doesn’t become a habit. The implication is that there’s a time limit this can be effective though, so hopefully that restricts future use of the mechanism.
Sadeas will be dead and cooling by the time anyone finds him, so I doubt he’s a candidate. Further, no one would want him back (aside from his wife, maybe). He’s not Skybreaker or Radiant material, and he doesn’t fit the Diagram (note: even prior to the Everstorm Sadeas was only possibly useful as a means to check or remove Dalinar. Taravingian wants to unify the world under him, and its a lot easier to replace a unified-and-recently-decapitated Alethkar than to try and absorb a series of warlord-owned territories. So if Sadeas was the means of removal, he’d find himself eliminated immediately thereafter as a stability threat).
Eshoni… I’m pretty sure she is still alive considering it was raining so she would have had a soft landing relatively add on thr fact she was in storm form which offered protection against weather and in shard plate which seems to have its own supply of oxygen (considering how it seals itself up). I’m fairly certain this adds up to her being back.
Eshonai is obviously alive. Plus, didn’t Brandon say that she will be one of the flashback characters?
While I, too, am of the opinion that Eshonai is likely not dead, Brandon has neatly and thoroughly removed the “upcoming flashback sequence” argument. He’s all but promised that we’ll have a flashback sequence from someone who’s dead.
They aren’t really flashbacks; they are chapters set in the past for the purpose of revealing a character’s backstory. The only actual flashbacks involved so far are Kaladin’s last memory of Tien and Shallan’s memory of her mother’s death.
Flashbacks, past chapters, it’s all semantics. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Well, yes and no. If they were truly “flashbacks” we could use the argument that the character has to survive at least that long… but we don’t get to do that. We’re all but guaranteed to get a whole book of backstory on a character who is dead.
Alice,
Thanks so much for all the time and effort you’ve put into this reread for the last 2+ years! I’ve really come to value the discussion and observation that arises from your efforts. Warbreaker was my first introduction to Brandon and the Cosmere (even if I didn’t know what a cosmere was at the time), so I’m really excited that you’ll be doing a re-read of that novel. Enjoy this break; September will be here before you know it!
Personally, I’m imagining there’s bells in that bandolier and Garth Nix just announced a crossover saga with Sanderson. A guy can hope right? The Old Kingdom infringed on another world before. Sameth’s descendants can make another Wall.
I can’t tell y’all how happy it makes me to have people popping in here to say that they’ve been following the reread this whole time, even if they rarely or never commented. It’s all about enjoying a book together, and if some are quieter than others, that’s fine. It’s just an honor to know that it’s been worth your time!
I also need to acknowledge my debt to the many who commented (including those who pointed out and/or sent me private messages when I screwed up!) for the provocation to think more deeply or from a different angle. Also, for all the laughs. :D This has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life. Also one of the most challenging, frankly. Yes, Ross, there were times it really did feel like the Book of Endless Pages… especially when we started the climax and there were still over two months worth of posts to do. o.O
A mere eight years ago, I had never heard of Brandon Sanderson, and I’d so nearly given up on the Wheel of Time that I wasn’t even aware that Robert Jordan had passed away. Then one day something made me go do a search to see if he’d done anything after that (to me) flop called Crossroads of Twilight… I discovered the WoT online fandom, learned that RJ was gone, that some unknown named Sanderson was going to finish the series, and some gal named Leigh Butler was going to do a reread of the whole thing in preparation for the finale. I’d never done online fandom of any kind, but I started following the reread, and then started commenting, and meanwhile read some Sanderson books to see if he was any good. Heh.
Four years later, I found myself becoming a new beta reader for Words of Radiance; six months after that, I was writing articles for Tor.com, and a few months later became one of the writers for this reread. Now I find myself with dear friends around the world, people I’d never have known without the WoT reread and the Sanderson team. I’m amazed, and delighted, and honored, and humbled.
Eight years ago, I’d never have imagined any of it.
I saw the need for Brandon to ostensibly kill off Jasnah and Szeth, yet restore them at the end. With Jasnah around, Shallan would not have quickly developed into her more confident self and into a leadership role. Szeth’s apparent death at the hands of Kaladin was needed to resolve an existential problem (Szeth) and graphically show Kaladin’s newly found power. Yet the two ‘victims’ have a role to play in further books. Jasnah’s return adds an interesting, if still rather unsympathetic character. She is still too arrogant and quick to anger. However, her near-death experience and journeys outside of Roshar may yet temper her character. I would guess that her bandolier pockets contain large and easily accessible gemstones to power her way. Her backpack may contain notes taken during her journey as well as food. My remaining question has to do with the poor relationship that had arisen between Hoid and Jasnah. She actively dislikes him and only moderates that view at the very end. We have seen that Hoid encourages proto-Radiants and doesn’t adopt his usual sarcastic style with them. What is different about Jasnah? Perhaps her arrogance and ruthlessness (hiring assassins) prevented him from trying to support her progress. In any case, many thanks to Alice for providing and encouraging an interesting discussion forum. I look forward to continuing with Warbreaker.
I always look forward to Thursday afternoons to see what insights and discussions the next post brings. Thanks so much for all your work on this. I’m looking forward to the Warbreaker reread, but enjoy your well-earned break!
Wow. I’ve only been here for a fraction of the whole reread, but it still feels like a long time what with all the great discussions I’ve had and people I’ve gotten to know. Thank you, Alice, for writing delightful and thought-provoking posts that set the tone for the reread as both intelligent and fun. And thank you to all the great commenters who made this community friendly, engaging, and thoughtful…and to the awesome lurkers who actually enjoyed the perpetual walls of text. The reread was a real blessing for me living in a place with very few Sanderson fans or really any other community.
I’d like to think that I’ll be able to join you folks for Warbreaker – it’s one of the Sanderson books I didn’t enjoy as much, and so I’m eager to give it another look and study it more closely. But my life is crazy right now and I don’t know if I’ll have the time and energy once things settle down. At any rate, I hope you all have a stormload of fun, analysis, walls of text, RAFO-sighs and squees of delight.
So. The chapter. It’s always interesting to see Hoid’s musings on art, and by extension, Brandon Sanderson’s. If we’re going to talk about the meaning or at least effect of art being relative and dependent on expectations, then with our current expectations for the rest of the Stormlight Archive this winds up reading a bit like a warning. Don’t expect transcendence or you’ll be disappointed. Or perhaps like Brandon Sanderson wondering out loud about the effects of the ever increasing fame and hype that surround him and his books. I really enjoy how self-aware and self-analytical he is about the craft of writing and his career – it’s apparent not just in Hoid’s monologues, but also in Alcatraz’s rambling chapter introductions and Sanderson’s own annotations, lectures, podcasts, and just about everything else. Being a Sanderson fan, you don’t just get to explore his fantasy worlds, you also get to explore the world of writing, publishing, art-making. That’s really cool.
So Hoid still seems to steadfastly believe that Roshar is doomed (or else he’s doing a good job of pretending that he is). If he really does think that nothing can save Roshar, then what is he doing there? What task does he have to accomplish there that’s worth risking death by Odium? Or perhaps he’s just playing word games and doesn’t actually think Roshar is doomed; the world is ending but that somehow doesn’t mean complete destruction.
Another RAFO: Why was Jasnah learning about history from highspren? Why highspren specifically? Are they more knowledgeable? More willing to talk? You’d think that highspren wouldn’t like Jasnah given her fondness for assassination and other questionably legal activities. Any ideas?
As for the Ars Arcanum: I have to admit that even if all the essences/body focuses/etc aren’t magically sound and are just fluffy philosophical constructs, I love the symmetry of the chart and how so many different concepts are fit into that one image of the Double Eye. “Transformative cognitive entity” is also an interesting phrase. Presumably the “transformative” bit refers to how spren manifest in the Physical Realm?
There’s also another indication here that Khriss may be especially interested in Yolen. Already in Secret History, there’s a clue that she might be particularly searching for Yolen when she says it’s “shrouded and hidden somewhere in the cosmere. I have yet to find it”.
Re: death and resurrection in this book: The fake deaths in WoR made me a little uncomfortable, but Secret History and Bands of Mourning are what kind of pushed me over the edge. Are there any major Cosmere characters now who died for real with significant, visible consequences? (Vin and Elend died for real, and yes, that was heartbreaking, but it was at the end of the trilogy so it didn’t actually pose much of a plotting challenge for Sanderson moving forward.) I mean, Bastille died, and that had major consequences for those of us who skipped ahead to the last pages, but to my eternal grief that is not Cosmere. So at this point I do feel like Brandon Sanderson will need to kill someone big and make us suffer for it if he wants me to be truly worried when he puts his main characters in danger. Aaand I’ll probably regret having said that in a year or so when he actually does it, but oh well…
@2 AndrewHB: When Wit is introduced in TWoK chapter 12 he’s described as having a sword that sounds like a rapier.
Jasnah’s Shardblade is also described as “a long, thin sword”. (Hey, those descriptions are suspiciously similar. Maybe they’re the same sword!)
@3 Fulgriim: Now you’ve got me thinking. Could Adonalsium have a Cognitive Shadow? Perhaps something like the Stormfather for Honor?
@7 noblehunter: I’m just waiting for Hoid to start quoting Alcatraz on something. Maybe the “it’s an author’s greatest pleasure to hear that their book has kept someone up into unholy hours of the night, we get a kickback from the caffeine industry” speech.
@13 birgit: This WoB is relevant.
It’s from 2013, so pre-Shadows of Self and Bands of Mourning. I think I heard the idea from someone else that he could be tapping Fortune, and this somehow guides him to where he needs to go.
@16 sillyslovene: That line stood out to me too, particularly since Hoid is the kind of person to get a kick out of saying things that sound pointless or weird but that actually have some deep secret meaning. But I can’t think of any way that Hoid seems to be “spiritually” blind. Is he able to disregard Connection somehow…?
And yes, Hoid is so self-aware, and feels even more so for all his musings on art. He seems to construct himself almost as if he’s writing himself as a character. Which…if he’s trying to “write” himself…could we possibly see his monologues on art as a reflection on how he’s forming himself and his reputation? Trying to arrive at the right time, build up the proper expectations?
Many thanks from me as well, Alice. I’ve followed from the beginning, anticipated each week’s posts and occasionally stuck my nose in and commented. Looking forward to Warbreaker and of course, the next Stormlight Archive adventure.
Hoid’s significant interactions with other characters always seem so lonely to me, especially the epilogues. He is a puzzle
So, to celebrate (mourn?) the end of the reread, I wanted to share some stats about the comments that I found interesting. I wrote a program a few weeks ago to download comment data, parse it, and put it into a database, and then I went crazy writing queries to run against the database and designing charts to generate. Here are a few of them. (I apologize for the ugliness of the charts; the WinForms chart API doesn’t generate very pretty images, but I could write something fast with it.)
Total number of comment authors: 582
Total number of comments: 8,330
Total word count of all comments: 1,419,503 words (almost a whole Stormlight Archive’s worth!)
Percentage of comments that contain the word…
-Kaladin: 30%
-Shallan: 27%
-Dalinar: 19%
-Adolin: 23%
-Renarin: 8%
-Brandon: 16% (extremely lucky)
-Odium: 6%
-Hoid: 4%
And here’s a word cloud of words that appear often in the comments (though it’s slightly outdated, it only goes up to chapter 85):
Number of comments posted at each hour in the day, using the time from Tor’s servers:
(You can see that most commenters are in the Western Hemisphere, or else have unusual sleep schedules.)
Average word count of comments in each position (by “position” I mean the comment number; e.g. this comment is at position 49):
(The orange line is a trend line, averaging the last 5 points).
Number of comments posted on each day of the week:
Average time elapsed since previous comment, for each position (so it shows how quickly people comment over the course of a post):
And here are some links to listings of commenters by…
–Number of posts
–Total word count of posts
–Average post word count
My program could also produce many of these stats for a specific commenter, so if you’re curious about when you tend to post or what words you use, let me know and I can generate that information for you. And if there’s something else you want me to find out, or if you have any ideas for other charts or stats – let me know and I’ll see if I can do it!
If somebody wants the original program, I could get it to them, but warning: 1) it’s not user friendly at all, it’s just a pile of command line tools, and 2) the code is messy and awful because I threw it together over a weekend without bothering to design it well.
I love it! Especially the word cloud. :)
Birgit used to do “top poster by number of comments” and “top poster by number of words” with average word count per post on the WoT reread. It was fun, too!
My old program probably doesn’t work on the new Tor website.
Alice, thank you very much for the reread! I haven’t been following it from the start, but for the last few months, it’s been the highlight of my Thursdays – and the same goes to the discussions in the comment section, even though I barely commented myself. Certainly looking forward to Warbreaker reread.
Thanks for the reread Alice! I wasn’t able to comment for all of it but I’m glad I managed to be here for roughly half of it!
It’s scenes like this chapter’s that make Hoid problematically enjoyable for me – it’s a fun sequence but even when he isn’t trying he can definitely be annoying. Which is why I’m glad Secret History gave us a scene where Hoid gets a bit of comeuppance, even if it doesn’t stick. XD
@49 sheesania: Oh that’s neat, thanks for the statistics! I’m glad when averaged out my comments’ word counts aren’t quite as egregious as I was worried about.
As for people coming back from the dead, Szeth was probably the only one that would have bothered me, but his story didn’t really feel over by that point so I didn’t mind…plus, giving him Nightblood basically cheated him back into my good graces (what can I say, I’m a sucker for sentient magical weapons). Of course, the Roshar cast being largely alright so far only makes me worry more for the future – the more of them that survive to later books means the more people that can die in said later books. >.>
@@@@@Alice, thank you for everything! So glad you were able to go it alone after Carl had to give up his weeks.
@@@@@carl, if you still check in, you did great! Remember, no one expects a ferret to attack! :-D
@@@@@49: those are cool stats. And yes, I’d love to see where I fall. The word cloud is rather funny. Adolin and Kaladin looming big and bold.
@@@@@ Birgit, I always found your summary posts very cool. Sorry it doesn’t work on the new site. I’d wondered how you did it. I remember the first time I made your Top 50 list. It was a thrill for me.
To my fellow commenters, thank you for the wonderful conversations, tangents, and rabbit holes! You’ve inspired me often.
Re: Rapiers – I admit to being surprised by the theory that Jasnah’s sword represents she went to Sel. To me it means she was trained with a smaller blade than a typical Shard. Because she had no expectations of inheriting one, nor was she going to duel for one. But with the military mindset of the Vorins, she was trained with a blade that fitted her style and weight class.
I mean different earth cultures developed different blade styles, so why not Vorins?
I just remembered crying out “No!! She can’t be dead!” When I first read that chapter. Which was Tor’s preview of the audio. I was waiting for the mail to deliver the book. Must have listened 3 times before I believed it. I can’t remember my reaction to the end, except I was happy.
But, I now want to sew with a Shardneedle! Even if I drop it, it can’t get lost in the carpet. Thank you Alice for that though. :-D
I’m looking forward to the other Shardblade shapes we will see in SA 3.
Again, I’m left with wondering who / what Hoid will be talking about at the end of book 10.
I do hope the dead of book 3 stay dead.
The faberial will need to be further discussed, but if anyone else comes back from the dead, my eyes will be rolling.
No, I don’t count Esonti. No dead body, no death. Wearing full Shardplate, she’s protected. Will be interesting to see where the storms swept her to.
The series page http://www.tor.com/series/ has a bug where if you try to switch it to title mode id does not work. Any idea when that will be fixed?
P.S. sorry if this is a bad place to ask but I do not know how else to go about it.
Ben, I flagged your comment so the tech folks will see it. No problem with posting it here.
@56,57 – Thanks for bringing this to our attention!
Wow. I would have never known. Top 20 in number of posts and word count. I guess I have a lot to say huh?
Wet – thanks for the excellent work throughout these books. I haven’t been posting much (Edit – looking upthread to the stats post….nine posts – ugh) but I have been reading and enjoying your work and the excellence of our broader community. Looking forward to Warbreaker.
Rob
I also wanted to thank Alice and Carl.
Interesting that no one else had my reaction: I see a budding Hoid/Jasnah romance. They’re doing an adult(ish) version of the schoolyard “pick on the kid you secretly like” dance.
Really, no one else sees it?
@carl But Hoid treats EVERYONE like that.
@@@@@61: and what happens with Hoid jumps to live on another 200 years? Jasnaha might jump once her world is safe, but right now would not live another 200 years.
How do Hoid & Khriss get along? I don’t remember the answer to that question.
@@@@@ Sheesania: thanks again for the stats. I finally could look at your links. If I average my 314 posts across the 107 WoR posts*, that’s 2.93 posts per chapter. Not too shabby, since I remember dropping out for awhile after my daughter’s birth. :-D
It means Wetlandernw has made an average of 7.97 comments per post too. Alice, thank you for being so interactive with us all. You didn’t have to be, thus it makes it more special.
* 107 = Ch. 1-89 + Interludes 13 + 5 non-numbered posts
Jasnah whipping her shardblade out made me think of something I would like to ask Brandon:
a) Do all Radiants learn how to fight with their shardblade? I can’t imagine Jasnah flailing about in battle…
b) Thinking of people not suited to combat made me think of something else: can a really fat person use stormlight to lose weight? I.e. if they saw themselves as skinny in the spiritual realm, would the stormlight “heal” them?
Austin @@@@@ 64 – I believe that all Radiants are trained at Urithiru on the art of war. That is also the reason why Alethkar has a large number of radiants because they have a warlike culture. I believe Urithiru is Roshar’s equivalent of military academy or training.
I’m so glad people enjoyed my stats!! I’m slightly alarmed at how high I am in the author rankings given that I haven’t been around very long…I hope I haven’t been yammering on too much about things others don’t care about…
@64 Austin: I’m at work so I can’t check my notes, but someone (I think either Jasnah or the in-world Words of Radiance book) said that a good percentage of Radiants were involved more in diplomacy and other tasks rather than war. And we know that some Radiants (like Dalinar) won’t have Shardblades, so perhaps learning how to fight with one isn’t essential to being a Radiant.
Your idea about Stormlight “healing” is intriguing. Is the healing based solely on how a Surgebinder sees themselves? If so, couldn’t they change anything about themselves whether it’s technically a “disease” or “injury” or not? But then, wouldn’t Stormlight “healing” function more like with the Returned in Warbreaker, who wind up being unnaturally good-looking per whatever their standard of beauty is because of the way their magic works based on their self-image? But the Returned couldn’t heal themselves. Ugh, it’s been too long since I read Warbreaker. At any rate, your idea does bring up the interesting question of what exact standard Stormlight healing tries to return a Surgebinder to.
I just wonder how Stormlight interacts with the body. Does it respond to the mind’s instructions? Does it only respond to the ideal self and disregard the brain and its processes? For instance, when a normal person gets injured, the brain knows the injury is not natural but lacks the resources to fix it right away. Instead, the brain heals that injury over time. But when that person becomes infused with Stormlight, is the brain like “Oh yeah! I’m using this stuff to fix all kinds of stuff that’s been bugging me for years!”
Or is the Stormlight like, “Excuse me, Brain, but this dude (or dudette) needs to reflect how he views himself. Out of the way!” So the question becomes, as you pointed out sheesania, does Stormlight not heal but rather modifies the body, ala the Returned in Warbreaker? And if it does heal and interacts with the brain’s processes, does the brain view excess fat cells as an injury or sickness? Being very overweight is unhealthy, but does the brain see the fat cells as backup power instead of a sickness or disease?
dptullos@@.-@:
Elkohar likes him.
Alice the awesome rereader@39:
Gavilar seems like a strong candidate for this.
Forkroot @@@@@ 68 – You know what, you are a genius! I did not think of Gavilar because he has been dead for a long time. Even in the first book, he was already dead.
And it will be awesome if it is Gavilar. It gives me goose bumps already thinking about it. :-) It reminds me of Daphne du Murier’s “Rebecca” wherein the protagonist was dead even at the start of the book yet she played a major role in the story. And so many flashbacks!!!
Anyway, just a thought. It will be great if it is Gavilar.
@68 forkroot
Yes! In Adonalsium knows how many centuries, Wit has found two people who don’t dislike him for being impossibly frustrating and smug. His mission is finally accomplished.
@68 forkroot, @69 sheilagh
Gavilar would be amazing. We know that he was involved with Taravangian, the Sons of Honor, and that he was planning to bring back the Heralds and the Parshendi “gods”. He seems to stand at the intersection of every secret society, yet we know almost nothing about his motives or his actions before his death. I can’t wait to find out more about a character who is both central and persistently mysterious.
Unfortunately, I don’t think Gavilar is a likely candidate, as much as I’d love it. (I’m hoping for a LOT from Dalinar’s flashbacks, though!) As we all know, Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, Szeth, and Eshonai are the flashback characters for the first arc. For the second, though it’s all still carved in jello, IIRC the flashbacks will be Lift, Renarin, Jasnah, Shalash, and Taln. Maybe he’ll change one to Gavilar… :)
Love seeing the stats up. Thanks @sheesania. Sounds like I had a similar moment to you when I looked at those poster rankings. I’d be interesting in seeing the poster specific graphs that you talked about, I feel like I was one who often commented just as the next post was coming up and want to see if that’s true. (I also didn’t think I posted that much. :D )
Re: KR being more than just fighters.
I got the feeling that Jasnah was just saying that to make Shallan feel better( and you are right it was Jasnah telling that to Shallan). I remember reading in an interview that Brandon was saying that one of the influences for the KR was actual knight (both eastern influenced and western influenced).* Knights use to be diplomats. Jasnah might also have been including squires in that assessment – either intentionally or unintentionally.
Personally, I can see Jasnah knowing how to handle herself around weapons.
*Side note:
While it’s guaranteed that the Rashadium are more than just horses; it’s highly likely that they are tied to the KR somehow. it’s tied into the image of a knight errant to have a sword, armor and a horse. We already know how the sword fits in and hints about the armor but the horse still is a mystery that Hoid just had to poke at.
Re: Gavilar as POV
I’m with Alice on Gavilar not be a likely candidate. For a short while there I was worried that Dalinar was going to be character who was going to die and then we would have a book with him as the flashback POV. That could still happen if Dalinar dies mid-book in Oathbringer, I suppose but I wouldn’t count it as likely.
@8
Fun fanfiction you got there. :) Since I like Adolin and Shallan I would change a couple things in your story line to wind up with them.
Since Renarin is nervous about meeting with Shallan and tell Adolin. Adolin suggests a double date with him and Danlin, That scene can play out more or less like the scene we actually got. (Shallan can still ask about Adolin goes to bathroom only this time a shocked Renarin and Danlin might end up being part of the audience which hears her ask the question. I don’t know if Adolin would answer if others were present but her asking would sure make him pay attention.) So now Shallan was trying to get Renarin interested and accidentally keeps engaging Adolin’s interest. Danlin would be worried not only because she loosing Adolin’s interest in romantic fashion but worries that she might also loose his involvement in the plot. (Because romance plot point.) Renarin meanwhile actually finds that while Shallan is kinda scary when she tries to charm him and he would actually prefer it if she would switch her interest to his brother.
Added conflict is Dalinar and Navani worrying unnecessarily about the relationship between his two sons because here seems to be a very clear parallel to the past playing out in front of him. Until Renarin opens his mouth and reminds them that Adolin and he aren’t Gavilar and Dalinar.
Meanwhile Adolin is very much attracted to Shallan but is trying to deny it because a.) he meant it when he said he would make it work with Danlin (but he hasn’t been solid about that for a while now, ever since she started in about the plots; things just don’t sit right between them long before Shallan) and b.) he doesn’t want to steal someone away from his brother (except that anyone with eyes could see that Shallan’s and Renarin’s personalities were diametrically opposed and it was actual kinda painful trying to watch them work it out.)
So at the end of the book Shallan is known as a KR and breaks it off with Renarin. To eventually peruse Adolin but that would have wait for the next book.
And I just alternate universed your alternate universe.
Re: flashbacks: It’s highly unlikely that we’ll get the main flashbacks throughout the book for Gavilar, as Alice pointed out, but it’s a popular theory that we’ll get a POV for him in a prologue. I’m a tad concerned that Brandon Sanderson won’t do this simply because it’s an obvious “twist”, but it would certainly be interesting. What WAS he saying to Amaram?
kei_rin, I’ll PM you those charts once I’m at home and can access my program!
@58 please let us know when this bug has been fixed.
You know, Brando could be trolling us all.
Szeth is going to be a flashback POV.
Szeth died.
Szeth didn’t stay dead. He’s whining: “I’m not dead yet!”
Yes, he had First Death, but what about Second Death?
And upon second death, stay dead.
Braid_Tug @@@@@ 75 LOL at “upon second death, stay dead.”
@68 forkroot, @70 dptullos, add Kaladin to the list of those don’t dislike Hoid/Wit. In fact, he is intrigued and strongly influenced by him. In their first meeting, Hoid prompts Kaladin using his lightweaving ability to accept responsibility for his surgebinding powers. In the 2nd, he again uses lightweaving to alleviate Kaladin’s state of depression while imprisoned by conveying the lesson that it’s the struggle that counts even if faced with a seemingly impossible challenge. Kaladin uses that lesson when he valiantly attempts to defend Elhokar despite being near death. Dalinar may be frustrated by Hoid’s sarcastic humor but he is also intrigued by his insights when they have a serious but short conversation.
The first five books will have prologues covering Gavilar’s assassination right? We got Szeth’s and Jasnah’s, Dalinar was there (but drunk), probably a Gavilar flashback…and who else? Amaram maybe?
I want to add my thanks to Alice (and Carl) for getting us through this reread. Due to various circumstances I couldn’t participate as much as I always wanted to (although sheesania’s stats seem to rank me in the 20s or so, go figure), but I’ve enjoyed following along and checking out all the different perspectives and theories.
Quick comment about the reading, I was glad to see Jasnah return, as I recall I defiantly held out hope that she was alive up until almost the end, but was about to reluctantly accepti the apparent fact that she was gone. The epilogue made my day (and demonstrated Jasnah’s Elsecalling and her Shardblade in just a few short pages)! And Hoid didn’t bother me all that much here; I think it wasn’t until I read the Secret Histories that he really annoyed me.
The Ars Arcanum was cool as it introduced “The Surge of Strong Axial Interconnection” and the “Surge of Soft Axial Interconnection” and the geek in me realllly wanted to know what that means. Well, we’re likely to see Tension in the next book at least.
Looking forward to Warbreaker!
I’ve been a bit busy these past few…years(!!) to keep up with these, but I do want to say how impressive of an achievement this is, Alice!!! I quite want to follow along with the Warbreaker re-read…one of my favorites! Much looking forward to that.
Thanks Alice (and Carl) for a great reread experience! Looking forward to a Warbreaker reread, I think this was the second Brandon Sanderson novel I read and I seriously enjoyed it and am interested in what others think of the story.
@@@@@ prologue characters — I too would like Gavilar’s POV, I think I remember a WOB regarding that his would be the prologue in the fifth book? I also would love a Parshendi viewpoint for a prologue, if I remember right, Eshonai wasn’t there, but maybe it could be Rlain, or Venli, or maybe Eshonai’s mother(pre-senility)?
Add Adolin to the list of people who like Hoid:
Wanted to belatedly add my thanks to the re-readers, as SoA re-read has been the high point of my Thursdays as well. Even though I got too distracted by life to comment towards the end, sigh.
Anyway, one question suddenly occurred to me, if anybody is still reading – namely how on Earth Roshar did Nalan know exactly when and where to wait for dead/dying Szeth?! We now have WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy to learn where and when he needs to be, even though he doesn’t always know why, but Nalan seemed to know exactly what was going to happen. Did he do a bit of Worldhopping too during the 4.5 millenia after the Oathbreaking and accumulated some different Investiture in the process, or… what exactly? I even considered him maybe nicking Palah’s Honorblade from the Shin instead of his own and gaining some kind of clairvoyance thereby, but no, he wouldn’t have needed to use an extra fabrial to heal Szeth in such a case, now would he? A complete headscratcher for me at the moment.
I really hated Szeth’s sur/re-vival and still continue doing so. Why couldn’t _he_ have been the dead flashback PoV, eh? If insight into Shin is so important? And why wasn’t he ground into paste by his fall and the clashing storms? And how did Nalan survive the latter? Sigh. Well, at least he wasn’t killed by a shardblade in the new ending (which I also disliked – obvious comics sensibility there), that’s something.
Re: Jasnah, personally I reluctantly concluded that she was most likely dead after Shallan saw her apparent corpse run through the chest, no less, and her absence until the epilogue. Yes, the “corpse” subsequently disappeared, but I really didn’t think that Stormlight regeneration was _that_ powerful and the attackers may have had reasons to take it with them. The only thing that gave me a bit of hope was the non-reaction of Kholin family (bar Navani) to the news of her death. Even Dalinar, who had been longing for her arrival and generally seemed fond of her, didn’t seem particularly sad. And you’d think that Elokhar would have flipped his lid because of his preoccupation with possible assassination, if not sibling love. Etc. So, it looked either like some bad writing, or a faintly hopeful hint.
Anyway, despite my habitual bloodthirstiness in regard to literature – i.e. if an author wants me to believe that the danger is real, then some important, even main characters need to actually die in the process of defeating/obtaining whatever, not just bit characters or faceless masses; and normally firm conviction that (ostensibly) dead need to stay that way, I was so very glad that Jasnah survived. Partly because she is a type of character that usually gets a short shrift – i.e. a mentor, a somewhat older woman, somebody who has relevant education and had been working for years to gain real insight into the world-threatening danger, etc. And partly because I just really enjoy her character.
Also, it has been mentioned – sorry, I won’t attribute for the sake of posting speed, that Jasnah must have been a fully-fledged Radiant when she was “killed”, but I really don’t think so. IMHO, she was quite adept with the Transformation surge, but not Transportation one (or she would have used to it to get to the Shattered Plains sooner) and we don’t know if she had access to spren-shardblade before her extended vacation to Shadesmar and wherever else. I also think that she will want to learn how to effectively use a shardblade – for self-defense, if nothing else. She was certainly willing enough to weaponise Transformation and there are so few new Radiants that they don’t have the luxury of specializing too much, if they ever did. Personally, I tend to think that combat competence used to be required from all of them, even though most Orders focused on other things. But again, during a Desolation they’d need to be able to defend themselves and people looking to them for protection.
I also don’t believe that there are going to be Radiants without shardblades, with the possible exception of the other 2 Bondsmiths (when and if they appear). Dalinar is going to use Jezrien’s Honorblade, IMHO – it only makes sense. He may be becoming a statesman, but his life is going to be constantly in danger, so he’d need means to defend himself, i.e. a shardblade that he can use, and an extra surge can only help too.
Looking forward to Warbreaker re-read! Between Alice’s insights and Brandon’s extensive commentary on the book that’s going to be a really unique experience.
Isilel @83 – Huh. I’d never actually thought about that… how did Nalan know where to be? Some Herald-y thing? Or an extra “ability” he searched out along the way? It bears watching, because so far, Hoid is the only other person we’ve seen with anything like this skill. (Maybe Khriss, but I’m not so sure about that. She doesn’t have to be specific places at specific moments to do what she does.)
Another avid reader but rare commenter here. Just wanted to give much appreciation to you Alice for your wonderful posts. I’m sorry we’re through with SA (for now) but look forward to Warbreaker. I began following rereads with Leigh Butler’s posts on WOT too and now have several I enjoy. All the posts from the various commenters really give the books more depth for me, so thank you all and keep up the good work!
Its been a week now and news on the bug would be appreciated.
@83 Isilel and @84 Wetlandernw, I had also considered the problem of how Nalan knew where to be to ‘resurrect’ Szeth. My understanding is that the Heralds are sensitive to the appearance of surgebinding and can home in on it. That’s why Nalan could find Ym in Iri and chase down Lift in Azir. It also accounts for Taln immediately recognizing Shallan as a KR when she exhibited some surgebinding, despite his addled state of mind. Once Nalan picked up Szeth’s surgebinding on his way to the shattered plains, he could follow him using his own surgebinding abilities to cover ground quickly. Nalan was particularly interested in Szeth as a disciple once the latter had rid himself of his oath obligations. He could also sense that a Windrunner was in the vicinity, and that a mortal struggle would ensue that Szeth would likely lose. .
STBLST @@@@@ 87 – if that is the case, then why did Nalan ignore Kaladin and Shallan. Why did he not try to kill them. Or even Jasnah who it seems had developed surgebinding powers on the night Gavilar died or earlier.
I’m just playing devil’s advocate. I believe your theory is sound. It’s just that there are still loopholes that we need to figure out first. :-)
I saw a theory the other day claiming that Nalan is only hunting down and killing Edgedancers, recruiting Skybreakers, and ignoring the other orders. I don’t believe it for a skinny minute, but he made a reasonably decent case for it. (His argument for Ym being an Edgedancer is much the same as mine, so I thoroughly approved that part, but the rest was based on insufficient information – which is all we have, so there’s that.)
Hi,
Thanks a lot for the reread! I know you said you’re going to do Warbraker, but can you entertain the idea of doing a full Cosmere reread per publication order? I really would like to have a Mistborn reread, specially with Brandon’s comments attached, a rereread of the Way of Kings with all the new information and a M:SH reread :)
@88 sheiglagh, it’s not that Nalan is extraordinarily sensitive to (proto) KRs, but to the manifestation of surgebinding. Kaladin and Shallan were both very far from Nalan and only exhibited surgebinding occasionally. Szeth, on the other hand, was already a subject of Nalan’s interest due to his surgebinding assassination activities. When he went flying/falling towards his shattered plains objective, Nalan would want to follow to see what developed. While Nalan, the ‘ambassador’ with the crescent mark on his cheek, passed by Jasnah in Gavilar’s palace immediately prior to his assassination, he could not be sure of her status since she exhibited no surgebinding ability then – although he may have felt its presence in the palace some time before.
Diogo @90 – That would be a lifetime commitment!! :D
I’ve toyed with the idea, but it would almost have to be less in-depth than this was, just to get through things before I die in a timely fashion. And I honestly don’t know whether I’d be up for a complete reread of All The Books; it’s a bit of an intimidating task to contemplate. I’ll keep toying with it for now, okay? If I figure out a way to tackle it that won’t drive me insane, I’ll approach Tor about the idea and we’ll go from there.
Isilel @83 “We now have WoB that Hoid uses Feruchemy to learn where and when he needs to be” We know that Hoid had a bead of Larasium and so he can use Allomancy, but how does he have access to Feruchemy? Please tell me he didn’t SPIKE someone !!!
@@@@@89 Wetlandernw, many thanks, again, for your efforts on the rereads and I look forward to your contributions to the Warbreaker. As to Nalan just hunting Edgedancers, that is contradicted by his hunt for and attempt to kill Lift even before she exhibited her power of regrowth for the first time. He was not looking specifically for a proto- Edgedancer having the power of both friction and regrowth. It was sufficient for his murderous quest that she exhibited one form of surgebinding.
@@@@@ brandersanderfan, Feruchemy does not involve gruesome spiking, or any spiking. You are thinking of Hemalurgy.
I think the question was how he got Feruchemy, he might have used Hemalurgy for that.
Wetlandernw @@@@@ 44 – Alice, thank you for all that you have done here! My enjoyment of Brandon Sanderson’s works wouldn’t be as rich as it is without this community. I’m one of those who has been a cremling on the wall :)
I cannot wait for the Warbreaker reread!
zeldune @96 – “cremling on the wall.” You win!! (I’m totally borrowing that, you know.)
Also, and to all, it’s been my pleasure. You’re the ones that have made it fun, and worth doing. I’ve learned a lot about this book and the Cosmere from these discussions, and I hope it’s made all of us richer for the experience.
@93. IMHO, hoid split the lerasium, ate some to become a mistborn, and made an alloy of the rest with atium. Since feruchemy is of equal preservation and ruin, that, when eaten, might make you a feruchemist. Or, hoid somehow got a hold of sazedium.
Thanks Alice. I’ve been lurking reading all your posts and have been meaning to thank you for all your hard work. Can’t wait for Warbreaker!
HAHA! A Hunny on the last one! :P
Has the Warbreaker reread started yet? I ask because I cannot find it anywhere
I think it’s starting later today.
The first Warbreaker post should be up at noon today :)
I only asked because we were told sometime int September and it is already October. Even then it’s not so much the schedule slip that bothers me as being uninformed about it.
I have to confess, with everything else going on, it didn’t even occur to me until this morning to post an update here. :( My apologies! Yes, September turned weird (you don’t want to know!) so first-week-of-October became the best choice. Anyway, as promised, it’s live now, so I hope y’all will join us there! (This is just the introductory post; the prologue will come next week.)
Minor comment regarding the final Szeth/Kaladin fight: He changed the scene upon release of the paperback, and discusses why he made the change on his website.
remadegold @106 – Yes, if you go back to the reread posts for Chapters 86 & 87, you’ll find that we discussed that in some detail.
I just want to get this out there before WoR comes out.
A lot of people like Elkohar. A lot want him to be a Radiant.
He won’t be. He might become the opposite.
1. Elkohar and his wife both exemplify the opposite of the 3 Immortal Words.
A, DEATH BEFORE LIFE. The radiant never kills unnecessarily or risks his own life for frivolous reasons.” He did both of these in the chasmfiend hunt. and unnecessarily risks many other lives while he is at it, some of whom died. His wife is very concerned about her afterlife, so she ignores all she should be doing while she is still alive.
B. WEAKNESS BEFORE STRENGTH. Elkohar should be leading the way in the battles as one of the strong (a full shardbearer), but even in the final battle he stays home and keeps other troops home to protect him. He never shows the least interest in using his strength to protect others. Neither does his wife, who approves of throwing away tons of food while people starve outside.
C. DESTINATION without JOURNEY. Elkohar desperately wants to be a hero, but doesn’t want to do anything to become a hero. He wants to have the enemy king dead at his feet, but never actually went out to fight the enemy. He wants people to adore him and respect him, but has no interest in doing anything to earn that respect. Similarly, his wife wants to please the gods without actually doing anything good; she wants to buy her way into their favor by helping the ardents.
2. The spren he sees are [probably] not cryptics. There is not any evidence to suggest that cryptics would avoid Kaladin. But these do, whether he is with Syl or not. I suspect voidspren, or something similar and that they will eventually influence / corrupt Elkohar completely..
3. It is setting Dalinar up for an earthshattering lifechanging decision. He will eventually have to face that he cannot both protect the world and protect Elkohar, and will have to overthrow and maybe kill Elkohar. This will somehow allow him to say another set of words, perhaps about serving the people even at great personal cost or something. I don’t even want to think about Navani’s reaction.
4. it puts Kaladin’s choices to protect Elkohar in a sad light, but it was unquestionably the right thing to do.
Much like Hoid’s sense of timing, I just finished my re-read of WoR on Oathbringer launch day. This experience has really got me excited to move forward in the SA story.
Just wanted to throw out my own kudos to Alice for getting us to the finish line (yet again!!!). I though this was a great experience with fabulous discussions from so many people.
(Although, to be honest, I could have done without the shipping part. Not because l do not enjoy that aspect, but because it generated so many repetitive walls-of-text that I started to ignore some posts, and as a result, probably missed some good info here or there.)
I really look forward to starting Oathbringer in a few minutes, and participating in the Oathbringer re-read in a few months!
Thanks again.
Also, thanks to Carl for helping launch and guide us in the early parts of the re-read. I apologize for leaving that out!
Regarding:
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered
We have an “ugly lizard-crab thing,” which I assume must be some sort of cremling? And songlings, which always sound to me like they must be related to cicadas or something like that. The best part is how both critters seem to respond to Wit’s conversation. Does he actually manage to a) communicate with them or b) manipulate their responses? I don’t know that it actually matters, but it’s funny.
So, I just saw a WoB that the cremling Wit is talking to is actually part of a Dysian Aimian. Gives new context to the “intelligent audience”.